Transcript

Bennie F. Johnson 

Hello, and thank you for joining us for this episode of AMA’s Marketing And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we explore life through a marketing lens delving into conversations with individuals that flourish at this intersection of the unexpected and marketing. We’ll introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not have heard, but are exactly the ones you need to know. We’ll unravel the challenges, triumphs, and the pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing in their lives. 

Today is a really special episode, and our guest is none other than Paul M. Rand. Paul is a phenomenal and visionary leader in the marketing and communication space. He currently serves as vice president of communications for the University of Chicago. He leads the development of the strategic and digital communications in support of the academic programs, the university’s initiatives, and the institutional priorities. It’s through collaboration that he supports the momentum of the university’s research, its teaching initiatives around the world, and strengthening University of Chicago’s community and engagement. 

What’s interesting is Paul has also recently been tapped to serve in an interim leadership role as head of human resources for the university. We’ll explore that a bit as well. But it’s prior to joining the University of Chicago, that Paul had a storied career as an entrepreneur, agency leader, and chief digital officer. He’s been able to build not one, but two agencies that have been a part of the larger Omnicron Group, full service digital and social media agencies. Paul has been on the forefront serving as chief digital and growth and innovation officer for Ketchum, the global public relations firm, and has written a really incredible book that I often refer to, Highly Recommend. So Paul, thank you for joining the podcast.

Paul Rand 

Nice to be with you, Bennie. Thank you.

Bennie 

It’s fun to look back and knowing you read over the bio, which really is all about unexpected journeys.

Paul 

Well, and one of the most unexpected is when I joined the National Better Business Bureau and ran into a young Bennie Johnson that was already thriving in his career and making waves and doing some brilliant things in that world. So it’s extraordinary to see all the progress that you’ve made in your career and growth. And it’s really fun to be able to have a chance like this to talk with you.

Bennie

Yes. Oh my goodness. Thank you, good sir.  It means so much to me to have this conversation and to have you share. I’m smiling for our audience because we had good times building innovative approaches to marketing and community. And it’s wonderful. I want to start with that kind of moment, the entrepreneurial moment. You created one of the nation’s first really successful social media agencies.

Paul  

We did. That’s true, actually. It was very early on and it was, we called it Zocalo Group. Zocalo, of course, for many of your listeners probably know Zocalo as oftentimes it’s a Mexican restaurant or something else, but Zocalo often refers to a town square in cities in Mexico and so forth. We thought that was a great name for a word of mouth social media agency. And the premise behind it was this idea that overwhelmingly people will say,

Bennie

Okay.

Paul 

That the reason they buy a product or a service or vote for a candidate is because someone that they know and trust usually recommends it to them. And so this power of recommendation or the word of mouth was the foundation of what we did in Zocalo Group, which grew to a really a great size agency and was ultimately fully acquired by Omnicom Group.

Bennie 

Mm -hmm. You know, and I think that’s a really incredible point because you didn’t start off with technology. You started off with understanding the human experience and the need for that behavioral connection, which is really at the heart, I think, of the success.

Paul  

Yeah, and technology and all these things, and we’re in another wave, of course, of technological evolution with AI coming into every world we’re focusing into. I think part of it, though, is continuing to look at some of these just basic truths of what informs people, motivates people, engages people, and the technology are ways to hopefully make that easier and better. But those fundamental truths really don’t go away and continue.

Bennie

Right.

Paul 

To this day to be, I think, at the heart of marketing. I think you still find people saying that the reason they vote or buy or listen to a podcast is because someone they have some faith in. They may not even know them today, but they say, oh, this person’s like me. I’m going to listen to what they have to say.

Bennie

Right. We talk about that power of personal connection. So talk a bit about this unexpected transition. So you go from CEO of multiple agencies and serving in these capacities, and then you make the pivot to head up communications for a major research-based university. Talk a bit about that kind of transition in your life.

Paul 

Well, I grew up with a father who was a university president. And so I grew up in an academic setting and it was always extraordinarily, not only interesting to me, but my dad always would smile as he kind of understood some of the things I was working on, but not always. And then for many years, I worked as an adjunct faculty member and board member at DePaul’s Graduate School of Business. And so after the acquisition went through,

Bennie 

Right.

Paul 

The second time, and we had two agencies that were ultimately acquired by Omnicom Group, I really gave some hard thought to what I wanted to do and how to get back involved. And I didn’t want to go back and teach full-time, but I decided that doing higher ed in the marketing and communication space would be really interesting.

Honestly, it took me a while to find a place that would take a guy that was not from higher ed and naturally in that space and a number of places and be like, thanks, but no thanks, go get some experience. And fortunately, the president of the University of Chicago was like, I’ve got all the good higher ed leaders I need around me. I need somebody that can do what you can do. And that was of course Robert Zimmer, who was just an extraordinary leader of the University of Chicago.

Bennie

Right. Right.

Paul 

And was a wonderful colleague and partner and really one of the finest business leaders I’d ever worked with.

Bennie

Well, you know, when you first made the move, it felt like you were coming home. When you talked about it and the excitement. But I love thinking of it as unexpected because when someone reads the bio, we don’t necessarily see that as the next step. But when you talk about it, it feels like a natural extension of the leadership that you had built, community, and a through line that I’ve always seen in your work is this notion of innovation. Kind of like human.

Paul

Ha!

Bennie 

Driven innovation. And so when I look at the role, the things you’re doing at New York for Chicago really speak to that.

Paul 

Oh, thank you. Well, you know, it’s, to me, that’s one of the most enjoyable things about it. And innovation really takes a couple of forms. One is just that innovating for the sake of doing something different and better, but it also means finding leaders, whether you’re in an agency or a consultant or in-house, that actually is willing to let you take a chance.

We launched what is now actually one of the most awarded podcasts in higher education called Big Brains. And it’s getting upwards of 150,000 to 200,000 engagements a month. And I remember going in and it was a fresh idea. And I remember going in front of the president, saying in a very serious institution, we want to come up with a somewhat whimsical name because we wanted to engage people.

Bennie 

Yes. Right.

Paul 

And he just embraced it fully. And again, that was a bold move on his part, and it was a fun experiment on our part that really, really worked. And I think as long as you’re in a spot where you’re not innovating for innovation’s sake, but because you’re trying to find a better way of doing something. And of course, that’s where change comes from. And if you don’t continue to innovate in your own world, then somebody’s going to come along and innovate around you or better than you. And so I would much rather

Bennie 

Right, right.

Paul 

We innovate on ourselves and be constantly in the spot of finding new and better ways of doing things. And that just adds to the fun of the whole thing.

Bennie 

It really does. And I love your approach because that’s also a challenge with legacy organizations, where you have to build your legacy that you’re innovative. So you’re disrupting yourself because it’s really easy to get caught into, this is what the story at University of Chicago does. You know?

Paul 

Yes. Right. It’s, you know, the other thing that comes along is of course is that not only do you have to have that idea, but then you have to bring the organization along. I think any of the listeners who are in higher education know that the idea that there really is a perception in many institutions that doing anything that for faculty members are is seen in researchers is seen as self-promotional is really just.

Bennie 

Yes.

Paul 

Look down upon within their organizations. And even coming in and using the word brand in many academic institutions, for years was something that was really not fully embraced. And I know when I first came here, the idea was let’s not openly talk about brand. The idea of asking different folks to go and talk about their research, some would do it, but most said, that’s not really one of the ways that we drive to tenure.

And so innovating in such a way and finding ways that you’re not doing it to promote the institution, you’re doing it to help explain the work. And you get the side benefit of ultimately being, hopefully bringing good recognition to the institution as well as to the individual.

Bennie 

You know, talk a bit about, and it’s really interesting when I look in context of one of your really successful communication driven campaigns that focused on how to celebrate the breakthroughs and innovations in the research that’s happening with the faculty. Talk a bit about that, you know, and I don’t want to slaughter the name, but because it’s so elegant and looking at the day tomorrow started, I love the kind of concept of that space.

Paul 

Mmm. Ah, yeah, I’ll tweak it just a little bit. It was called The Day Tomorrow Began. And so let me go back to the crux of what the pillars are for the University of Chicago, because one of the first things that we did here was become extraordinarily deliberate about when, you know, University of Chicago really had a belief for much of its history that if people needed to…

Bennie 

The end, yes.

Paul 

Know about us, they would find us. There was very little energy put externally. And it was really one of those things where the focus was on the research and the work and not necessarily on the visibility of the organization. I think Robert Zimmer, who I mentioned, is what I was brought in saying we want to change this. We want to really turn this around and lift up and get recognized for the research and the work that’s being done here. It’s one of the top producers of Nobel laureates in the world and so forth. We look back and so the pillars we came up with were really when people think about the University of Chicago that the overarching element is rigorous inquiry and that really is something that stands out here. And then we wanted to drive things.

Bennie 

Mm -hmm.

Paul 

That really just talked about shaping and defining new fields, transformational educational experiences and impact. And so we looked and said, we want to find ways of showing and telling stories that hit those pillars. So we came up with this idea that what better way to talk about breakthroughs that happened and continue to happen at the university other than a series we call The Day Tomorrow Began.

Bennie

Right.

Paul 

And so we found numerous monumental breakthroughs that occurred on campus, ranging to the first nuclear reaction to sleep studies and discovering REM sleep that happened here that give you a chance to say, these breakthroughs have happened here and here’s all the things that are even happening today. And we did a series of 10 different episodes and it really helped bring stories to life. And this idea of creating content,

Bennie

Okay.

Paul

And engaging content that helps tell the story of your institution or organization is at the crux of a lot of the things that we do.

Bennie 

It’s really remarkable when you think about it that you had that latent knowledge there in a university that was held on and really was kind of that energy release of how do we use marketing and communications to strive towards our bigger mission and vision? How do we do that? It’s a great example. And for our audience, I encourage you to listen and check out the work that Paul has done. I think it’s really informative. And this was things that were embedded in the University of Chicago.

Paul 

Yes. All true. And part of it is, you know, for each organization and any of our folks that they’re listening, it has to be culturally appropriate. And so, you know, especially in higher ed, each organization has its culture, what works, what’s right. And so I knew that if we leaned into the things that we as an institution are particularly proud of, which is our scholarship and our research and our rigor, and celebrate it, not in a self -promotional way, but in an educational way,

Bennie 

Right.

Paul 

It would resonate as much on campus as it did off campus.

Bennie

And I think you’re absolutely right. And it speaks through. So, you know, in keeping with this conversation of culture and innovation, right, because those are things that are best rewarded when they’re intentional, when we intentionally think about culture and innovation and communication. So I want to talk about October of 2023, when you assume the interim leadership of the human resources department.

Paul 

Yeah. Yes, that was a nice surprise to be asked to step into that role.

Bennie 

So, you know, as I think about our conversations and at the heart of it, it’s people centered, it’s heart is innovation center, it’s change center, which is all at the heart of human resources. What has been your approach in this leadership time period for human resources?

Paul 

You know, maybe I can talk a little bit about how we ended up getting into this position and why. And the university announced that we had for many, many, many years of investing into really the imminence of the institution, some very strategic investments over time had really done its job and built up. And then I think there was a point of saying, all right, we’re running a pretty decent structural deficit.

Bennie 

Yeah.

Paul 

It’s with interest rates going up, we’re going to really put our energy into getting this deficit back in line with where we want it to be and evolving it. And so we brought in a new CFO to say, I’m going to buckle down on working on these things. And the president basically said, you know, HR has been reporting to the CSO’s office, to a CFO’s office, but I want to make sure that the person we’re bringing in focuses exactly where I need in this case, him to be. You’ve run.

Bennie 

Mm -hmm.

Paul 

You know, in your own companies, you’ve run HR in the past. Can you oversee that here? And so, you know, we have, you know, 13,000 folks that are part of the system, 17,000 if you look on a broader level. And fortunately, we have an extraordinarily strong HR team. And my role was to make sure that they had an officer of the university, in essence, that’s helping ensure they’re successful, that they’re given the right opportunities, that we’re for, finding the right paths that we’re prioritizing during a period of change, because there’s plenty of change management going on when you get to the point of saying, we invested in everything possible and now we’re going to scale back some of the areas that we’re going into. That represents a cultural change for an organization. And so it’s really been a matter of evolving. We had a 40 -year -old legacy financial system that was managing the university, which is new ones being rolled out.

Bennie

Yeah, okay.

Paul 

And as we talked about earlier, it’s a challenging time to be in higher ed. I think for years people have been so proud of the fact of the work that they do here or any institution, then finding that it’s challenged, some ways fairly, honestly, and in many ways terribly unfairly. And so making sure that we’re helping the organization navigate through those types of things becomes really essential too.

Bennie

Yeah. So I would ask that question. As you have broader responsibility, often we’re having discussions about having marketing and communications leaders have an executive seat at the table, have a role in engagement. And what I love about the story and the narrative is as you’ve occupied a seat in there, you’re looking into your bio to say, he has the skill to be able to be an advocate and provide leadership for the human capital space as well.

Paul 

Right.

Bennie 

That we often don’t see marketing leaders getting a chance to expand the portfolio of what.

Paul 

Yes, I think that you’re probably right. And you know, it’s, from the time I entered this field years ago, the getting a seat at the table has always been a trope of anybody that’s working in here. And in some ways, it’s exhausting. And I think if you’re, if leaders and organizations where they don’t have a seat at the table, and that’s something they consider important,

Bennie 

Right. Yes, yes.

Paul 

Then they need to find a place that they do have a seat at the table. And I do think that you earn that seat and you earn it by being informed and thoughtful and purposeful and providing good counsel and not feeling as if you’re just there to comment on things that are in your deliberate space. I would argue that from a communications point of view, that we now realize that everything that an organization does impacts and shapes its brand.

Bennie 

Yes.

Paul

And if some part of an organization, in my case, a campus is doing something that’s inconsistent with the brand, well, that affects us in every which way possible. And so being a voice of maintaining what our identity is, what our culture is, what our brand is, and ensuring we uphold that, and in many cases, being that voice is highly valuable.

And sometimes even asking questions is to me as a way of getting there. I can say, well, if we do this, what are the ramifications going to be and how is it going to be perceived? How’s it going to be talked about? And sometimes, you know, everybody knows what they want to talk about, but they may not know strategy. But if you start asking questions about where do you want them to be thought of or talked about or otherwise, sometimes communications or marketing will lead you right into organizational or business strategy.

Bennie 

Right. It really does. And I think you’re absolutely right. Kind of the layering of if you’re providing good, solid counsel, if you’re thinking about the organization and the goals, you know, your entry point is this core skill you have, whether it’s marketing or finance and space. And yes, that’s part of your, your play, but, but you’re thinking about how I pull all these things together for the organization. You know, I, I get excited when I hear you talking about it because having spent some time in the HR industry and in the marketing industry space.

Paul 

Right.

Bennie

That kind of beautiful space of the employer brand and culture and communication and change is the overlap that many organizations would miss. But having your role combined gives you that hyperfocus to know that being an agency lead, your world was all about talent. Right? Right. And.

Paul 

Absolutely. And arguably in any organization, right? I mean, unless you’re producing widgets of some sort or another, your human capital is the driver. And, you know, it’s interesting here at the University of Chicago, up until probably five years ago, there was no internal communications function, literally none. And not surprisingly, I think particularly staff often thought of themselves,

Bennie

Right. Exactly.

Paul 

As secondary to the faculty of the organization, but they were of course key components. And so, we introduced both a faculty and a staff version of newsletters that we call the Citizen, that ends up having 50 to 60% open rates and engagement rates. People look forward to it. We built an intranet, which now has thousands of visits every day and people are getting different news. And when you do surveys, you find people feel more connected to their institution.

Bennie 

Mm -hmm.

Paul 

And they love being reminded, especially if you’re an organization that, for lack of a better word, makes meaning. You want to be reminded of what that meaning is and find opportunities to embrace it. And finding that meaning and embracing that meaning and celebrating that meaning is just absolutely vital.

Bennie 

Wow. And so true. And we see this in for -profit companies and B Corp and other spaces. Your staff are your first customers. Your staff are your first, the first to internalize the brand. And we see that impact can be measured in organizations that do exactly what you’re saying that double down on, on that commitment. You know, if your staff and your team understand why we’re here, kind of that internal why, then that lays it into everyone else who interacts with the brand and the organization.

Paul 

Absolutely. Yes. Couldn’t agree more. And part of this, one of the first things I remember doing when I came to the universities, we produced a brochure that we called Telling the Story of the University of Chicago. And it was basically not a marketing slick piece. It was designed to give everybody at the organization, or even parents if they asked for it, if people ask you about the University of Chicago or you want to tell them, what do you say? Because nobody’s going to say, well, you know, I’ve you.

Bennie 

Right?

Paul 

Unless you’re paying me, I’m not going to be your shill. And I still might not be your shill. But if I really am enamored, as many people come into higher ed, they have a transformative experience, or their child does, they want to talk about it and share it. And the more that we can help people share what we want them to share, and we figure out our priorities and drive those things, that makes a huge difference of building the brand.

Bennie 

Right, right. You know, it does providing the tools means a lot, right? Cause you can have it and it gives you a comfort level. So to pivot a bit about tools, you know, we talked a bit when you first started Zocalo, there was a set of social media tools that existed in that universe. Today we’ve introduced an entirely new set of tools. What gets you excited about the new tools today that you can use?

Paul 

It absolutely does. Sure. You know, it’s interesting. I was listening on, I guess it was Marketplace on the radio this morning, the NPR show, Public Radio Show Marketplace. And they were basically talking about how there’s another utter transformation happening in Silicon Valley. And I was just out there visiting my son, who’s a grad student at Berkeley. And everywhere you turn, there are no billboards and posters talking about AI and the implications of that. And the…

Bennie 

Yes.

Paul 

And so where and how we’re embracing AI is something that I think is going to start data science, AI, language learning is utterly vital. And we actually have two or three people, even on our team here at the university, that spend a not insignificant significant amount of time looking at different AI powered tools to figure out what it is that we can do. But honestly, for me, it wasn’t enough. 

And literally, I just started yesterday a course here at the University of Chicago that was called Data Science and AI for Leaders. And it’s part of the Professional Education Network. And I really wanted to get into it and understand more on a fundamental level, what is it that’s going to shape the world that we’re operating in? And how do we take advantage of it and do it in the right ways? And so we’re at this incredibly formative stage, all of us in one way or another. Are using chat GPT. As mentioned on our podcast, we put together a briefing and do our research on chat before we start. And you still do all your digging, but there’s wonderful things that these tools can help produce. And now we’re looking at tools that are helping produce video content or audio content, and if not, editorial content. All those things raise a whole host of questions. It’s…

So all those things just are incredibly captivating. But back to your earlier comment, the core insight, the core value of what you have to understand as a marketer or communicator is still there. These are just tools to help you do your job better.

Bennie 

That this, you know, becomes that human connection, that town square that you mentioned before, that’s really, really important and transformative. So, you know, keeping you back again, we talked about the tools, let’s talk about the entrepreneurial journey. So what what advice would you have for entrepreneurs today? You know,

Paul 

Right. Right. Well, I think that there’s many kinds of advice that go into this. And I never set out, and at this stage, I have started and had three companies that were acquired. The first one ended up being, well, it ended up as an operation of Child and Family Psychological Counseling Centers that was bought by a national hospital chain. And then we had two agencies that were acquired ultimately by Omnicom Group. Each one of these things were that,

Bennie 

Right.

Paul 

You see an opportunity and then you see that it’s not being met. And I think back to this question you had about innovation, I find it actually hard, part of reading the news today is so overwhelming and depressing and that’s one aspect of it. The other aspect of constantly reading is that you see opportunities everywhere you turn and you see needs that aren’t being met and you say, I could figure out a way to do that better.

Bennie 

Right. Yes, yes.

Paul 

And it’s not starting with what are my skills and what do I do? It’s a matter of looking around and saying there’s something that’s not working as well as it could be or something that has the potential of being disrupted. What is that? And then having enough interest and faith to say, let’s explore if we were going to create something to meet that need, what would it be? So it’s almost really continuing to flip the the agenda around and not what am I good at, but what does the market need and how can I apply what I do to help meet that need.

Bennie 

Which I think is a really powerful for our listeners success formula in there. So you don’t start off with, you’re not starting off with I’m studying entrepreneurship. Although there are skills and rules and space that go into it that can be very valuable, but it’s really more of a I’m studying observing the world around me. I’m asking questions, I’m looking in there because the best, most dynamic market needed ideas are come from that space. It’s like, I realize this is broken. I realize this could be faster. I imagine what if.

Paul 

Yes, and I will tell you in the same breath that I’m a huge advocate of either business education, entrepreneurial education, or otherwise going back. And if people come and say, I’m thinking about going back to school and I’m in marketing or communications, I’m thinking about getting a degree in integrated marketing. More often than not, I’ll say, that’s great, but have you really thought about going and looking and getting an MBA instead? And because the ability to understand all the impacts of what is going to be impacting your decision as a marketer or communicator. And even if your journey is entrepreneurship, to learn what you don’t know and learn what mistakes others have made that you hopefully are going to say, I remember this and this is how they handled this situation. It’s giving you that insight that you may have not have gotten on your own. And maybe you’re learning more about data science.

Or other areas that are going to really have a real impact. Data is driving everything these days, right? The days of, I think, are really not necessary anymore. You can never replace the intuitive feelings about something, but then what you can do is take your intuitive feelings about something and then validate them or disprove them with data.

Bennie 

Right. Right. It’s so true. And that combination, I think what becomes the theme is always being on, constantly learning. Right. So it’s constantly learning from spaces and having unexpected areas as well. It’s not formulaic to your point. You know, there’s great things you learn in data science and core marketing education, but then you combine that with what you learn in a broader business excess of the MBA and then combine it with…

Paul 

Right. Right.

Bennie 

Whatever topic area or area that you’re going in for intellectual curiosity, that’s how I find out where the magic comes in, right?

Paul 

Couldn’t agree more. Yep. Yeah. And then intellectual curiosity, again, it’s back to this idea of reading. It’s just hard. You know, can find things that interest you all day long and stay intrigued with it. And you just never know where those ideas are going to come from. And you know, what’s interesting is I’ll come back to the higher end space and talk a little bit more of one of the other things that’s under attack right now in so many different ways is what’s happening regarding DEI. And,

Bennie 

Right, right.

Paul 

You know, and I think when the dynamic was, well, we have quotas to fill, we have other things to fill, it ignores the idea that what you need is a diversity of ideas or opinions or backgrounds to get the best ideas. And so I think through all these things that are going on, staying focused to what’s true, and if you are really there to innovate or to grow or to meet new needs, then finding different voices, different backgrounds, different perspectives to come to the mix.

Bennie

Yes. Yes.

Paul 

It’s not something you should feel obliged to do. It’s something that actually is vital to make sure you’re bringing in varieties of impressions and backgrounds and experiences and lived experiences to help make sure you’re gonna have success at what you’re doing.

Bennie

It is. And for most organizations, it’s true to your mission to bring out the best. You think about universities bringing out the best in space and, and this is how the best shows up. And from different experiences and different spaces in there and much like that learning prompt, you know, how many innovative ideas have come from a room with students and leaders from all across the world, from student leaders, from all the top social economic backgrounds and.

Paul 

Absolutely. Right. Yes.

Bennie

And ethnic backgrounds coming together, looking at problems in different ways, looking at opportunities in different ways, and coming to build something better.

Paul 

Well, one of the things that many of your listeners probably know about the University of Chicago, because it’s gotten so much in the news, is really our position and our work around free expression. And it’s with the Calvin principles and the Calvin Report and the Chicago principles, this idea of institutional neutrality and the idea that the university is the home of the critics, it’s not the critic itself. And being true to that in this world,

Bennie

Yes.

Paul 

And living it every day is absolutely vital. Part of what we’re all being reminded of is that bringing in different voices or voices you disagree with is not only hard, it can be painful. But to that point that you just made, that’s where the ideas are gonna come in. And when you do different studies and you start seeing that group thing drives a certain level of outcome, that the better we can be of creating an environment,

Bennie

Mm -hmm.

Paul 

Where different voices feel welcome. They have the chance to express themselves. They can do it in a way of not being coddled, but by saying, listen, this may make you uncomfortable, but you gotta learn how to deal with it. And that’s part of what it’s like out in the real world. And that’s how we’re gonna force each other to get the best ideas. But there has to be ground rules, of course, that people know that they are safe and their ability to do these things. But then you can, at least in higher ed. You’re creating an environment where real breakthroughs and discoveries can happen.

Bennie

Right, which is really kind of the dynamic way in which new knowledge is created, right? Right, and we validate and we set our truths and then we validate against that again, as we continue to evolve. You know, Paul, it’s always exciting and refreshing to have our conversations and I appreciate you joining us on this time. I still, you know, knowing the journey, it’s these moments of kind of innovation and challenge and people that kind of always come through. So I…

Paul 

No question about it. Yes.

Bennie

I love to, I can’t believe we’re at the top of the hour already, but I know I’d love to give you the first last word on what do you think is next for our marketing listeners? What do you think is next around the corner for us?

Paul 

Oh my gosh. The answer will not surprise you, but I think that tuning into data science and AI, and I think we’re at the formative stages of how it’s going to impact what we do on a day -to -day basis. And you’ll hear this conversation, there were people who said, well, AI is going to be here and take jobs. Actually, I think what’s going to happen is that people that understand how to fully embrace and use AI,

Bennie

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Right.

Paul 

Is what’s going to take your job. And so be one of those people and be curious and innovate and embrace.

Bennie

Yes. I love it. I think that’s a perfect way to end our episode with Paul Rand. Thank you for joining me and be curious, be innovative and embrace. And thank you all for joining me for this episode of Marketing And. We invite you to join and hear additional episodes, follow more needs and community stories from AMA and check out the work that’s happening at the University of Chicago as well. Thank you all.

Paul 

Thank you, Bennie. Enjoy being with you.