Transcript

Bennie F. Johnson

Hello, and thank you for joining us for an episode of AMA’s Marketing And. I’m your host, Bennie F. Johnson, CEO of American Marketing Association. Our episodes explore life through the marketing lens, delving into conversations with individuals that flourish at this intersection of marketing and the unexpected. Through our podcasts, we’ll introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to know.

Through our conversations, we will unravel the challenges, the triumphs, the moments of pivot that have been shaped in their lives by marketing. Today is a really special episode. I’m excited to invite and introduce you all to Sean Adams. Sean is the Dean of Art and Communication at the Art Center College of Design. He is the author of nine books, including the designer’s Dictionary of Color, and one of my personal favorites, How Design Makes Us Think. Adams has been an on-screen instructor for LinkedIn’s Successful Learning Program. He’s worked with Adobe and Design Observer. He is also the only two-term AIGA national president in the history of the organization, and in 2014, received the AIGA medal. Previously, he was an entrepreneur, and his agency had a successful list of clients that included the Academy of Motion Pictures, Arts and Sciences, Adobe, Disney, Gap, the Metropolitan Opera, the Museum of Natural History, Nickelodeon, and Sundance to name a few. Today I’m excited to welcome to our marketing and podcast, Sean Adams. Welcome my friend.

Sean Adams

Thanks, Bennie. You have a great, you have a perfect voice. It’s unbelievable. I’m just, I’m completely jealous. That sounds, makes it sound so like actually official.

Bennie 

Uh… Oh my goodness. Well, you are official, my friend, and this is official, this space in here. I have to share in full disclosure how much I love How Design Makes Us Think. When I started the role at AMA, I inherited what you do when you get a new job, a wonderful new office that no one was coming to. But I had a wonderful office space in there, and I was like, it needs life.

Sean 

Oh, thank you.

Bennie

It needs energy. It needs excitement. So I said, how can I create a space where people can get to know me and my vision for leadership, then bringing in things that are important to me? So I brought in a selection of books and the yellow golden rod cover of how design makes us think sits on the table in the room as an invite between several boxes of Lego for people to come and explore. So I have to say, have to thank you for that.

Sean 

That’s great. Oh, my pleasure. I’m so glad it has a good home. It’s nice to hear about.

Bennie 

Yes. It’s fun to have these conversations. And I think that there are things like this that have gravity that kind of pull us in, no matter where we’re coming from, they pull us in. And, and there’s so many moments in your career that I think have those moments. So I want to start off with asking you about the Art Center. The Art Center is such a special place, but it’s a place of gravity, right? Talk a bit about the Art Center and its role.

Sean 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, pretty amazing. Yeah. Well, you know, Art Center, we’re coming up on our 100th anniversary, and it was founded in 1930 by Tink Adams, not a relative of mine. And it really served the purpose of professional education for all kinds of design. And one of the things that I think really set it on the map was after World War II, and the GI Bill was in place, Art Center was the only school that had a trimester system,

Bennie 

Okay. Mmm.

Sean 

Enter at any time, any trimester in the year. And then you could basically get through very quickly because you didn’t, you know, if you were like, I’m back from the war, I’ve got a family, I need to get out of school. I don’t want to go on summer vacation. So it was a good way to do that. And then it’s always maintained that commitment to the professional industry that, you know, while, you know, there may be other schools that are more invested in experimental or theoretical,

Bennie 

Okay.

Sean 

We like to say, you know, we’ve got our feet on the ground. You know, we’ll always try and brand new things and pushing limits, but we live in the real world. And, you know, I think that’s, if I’m going to school at this point and college is expensive, I wanna make sure I’m gonna make a decent living when I’m done. And so that’s one of the things I’m really proud about is our, you know, I think our graduation rate for recruitment is like 94%.

Bennie 

Right, right.

Sean 

Are hired within six months of undergrad and 98% for grad. And, you know, so it’s like, you realize like, you’re helping people. Like there’s actually, they’re going out, they’re starting careers, they’re doing amazing things because they have really valuable skills that are ready to go.

Bennie 

It’s really, it is really amazing because you think about it, it’s kind of a contemporary innovation center for professions. You look at kind of the work that you’re doing. It’s the theory and the application in the moment. And seeing that being a driver. I think every time I’ve encountered someone who’s involved with the Art Center or coming through. That’s what always sticks out to me. It’s kind of it’s school plus right

Sean

Yeah. Oh, good. Yes, it is school plus it is. I mean, I, you, you know, when you talk to recruiters and are like, you know, cause at the end of every term, we have a grad show and a recruiting event. And you know, about a hundred different corporations and companies come to the recruiting event and recruit the students. And you know, we’ll ask them, what do you need? What are you looking for? What, what, what are we not doing?

And they’re always great. They’re always like, no, you’re doing everything great. In fact, they’re always over-prepared. They’re like, they’ve already worked in a studio environment because that’s the setup of all the classes. And they are like work like dogs, you know? They’re, if anything, we’re always telling them pull back a little bit. So, you know, I think that’s actually, I think our biggest challenge is that we want the students to understand it’s important to have a quality of life. So you need to sleep.

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

And maybe eat something green. And of course, that’s hard when someone’s 20 years old and they’re like invested in that design project, whether it’s a car design or it’s graphics and they’re like, don’t stay up all night, please sleep.

Bennie 

Well, see, and that carries so much weight now because you’re the dean. So the dean is set to sleep. I love to talk about kind of these road signs on your journey if you will, if I can just use one word to describe it, you were a designer, then entrepreneur, then professor, and now dean. Talk a bit about that, that pool, you know, cause you didn’t start off at the art center, you know,

Sean 

Yeah! No, no, I actually, I graduated from CalArts, which is like the polar opposite of Art Center. It’s really, it was like, when I was in school, it was like clothing optional pool and LSD in the punch. So it was a completely different experience. And then moving along, I started off as designer and sort of the way you expect your career is supposed to go that, oh yeah, you go to work. My first job was a…

Bennie 

Yeah.

Sean 

New York Public Library and I was the senior designer there, which I loved. It was an amazing job. And you know, yeah, the institutional designer doing what I’m supposed to do. And, you know, I went back to LA and I was like, I worked with April Grimond, who’s an amazing graphic designer. And then started my own firm with my business partner and you just sort of move along that path and then somewhere along the way, I think, I think I was like 25 years old, it was terrifying.

David Brown asked me to come and teach a class at Art Center. And I was like, I’m younger than the students. Like this is gonna, I can’t do it, you know. But I did and I was like, wow, this is amazing. I love this. This is like, it feels so good. And part of that also I think has to do with an ethos in Southern California, especially in the design field that you teach. It’s a given. It’s sort of like everyone did.

Bennie 

Okay.

Sean 

Everyone taught a class like Alvin Lustig versus Al Bass or Lou Danziger. You always taught and maybe that’s because the community, you know back in the 40s and 50s was so small That you had to like there was like to somebody had to teach somebody So that was that was really that set me on that path

Bennie 

Right. That’s really incredible. And it’s interesting how you layered that back in. That teaching slash mentorship that comes in and really kind of codifies a professional community of practice, like how do we have the standards in the space? So what do you find the biggest challenge today? So teaching in spaces in which we have an abundance of students coming in from different backgrounds, right? In a broad portfolio of things you can learn at the Arts Center. What are some of the challenges you’re facing today?

Sean 

Yeah, exactly. That’s a good question. I mean, there’s so many headwinds right now with higher education. And many of them are set in place because of governmental regulations that are oftentimes set up to really make it harder, I think, for people to go to school. And maybe that’s just the perception, the concept now of what higher education is compared to what higher education was in the 1940s is totally different.

And so, you know, we’re a lot of the, I think for all design educators, the biggest hurdle to get over is to convince people before they go to school that you can make a living doing this. That, you know, someone’s in high school and they say, gee, I wanna be a graphic designer. And I’ve talked to so many parents that, you know, they’re like,

I don’t know, we’re so worried. Like we don’t want her to be a graphic designer. Like we want her to make a living. We want her to actually not starve. And I was like, look, they’re not gonna end up like starving artists in an attic in Paris. I promise you, like that just doesn’t happen. And unless they want to, I mean, you gotta work hard to get there. But this is an actual viable career, whether it’s graphic design or it’s illustration or it’s filmmaking, whatever it is in any creative field. But you know, we live in that society that

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

Creative endeavors are somehow less important than being a doctor or a lawyer.

Bennie 

Right, right. Yet, creativity is sought after for our professions and all of those professions to drive innovation, to drive breakthroughs, right? To drive thinking. I think about it, we talk a lot about the role that parents have in school and space, but often our parents’ view is limited. They have our best interests at heart, but the view of what you could be, we’ve talked about before, I don’t think my parents ever understood what I did as

Sean 

Yeah, absolutely.

Bennie

A creative marketing leader. Right? What is that? I think he has something to do with the ads and the logos, right? Or I think he creates the business? It was a generic space in there. But they were always encouraging and, and yeah, it was, it was good. They allowed me to go into spaces that no idea what I was doing, but, but they figured I was good at it. So let’s keep listening. Yeah.

Sean 

Right, like what the hell is that? Great. That’s good. Good.

So they trusted you enough to realize like, okay, you got a hat on your shoulders. You can figure out what you’re up to. Yeah, my parents were, well, my grandparents were insistent, I think from the time I was three that I was supposed to be a Senator. And so that was like a Senator or a governor. They were upset. They were like, we haven’t had a Senator or a governor in the family for a couple of generations. So we gotta have that. And so that was, I just assumed that was the path, you know? And…

Bennie 

And if it’s working, Okay.

Sean 

And when it came time to like decide between Harvard or CalArts, and I said, I’m going to CalArts. I want to be a designer. They honestly, everybody just lost all interest. They were like, nobody ever asked me about school.

Bennie 

I was going to ask how did that diverge it? How did that divert from, okay, I’m going to be a senator or a governor.

Sean 

Exactly, which they just expected up to the last minute. And then I remember, you know, my mom, everyone, so she’d be like, Where do you go to school? What is that Caltech is that’s Cal Poly? What is it like? They just it was like, OK, well, do your own thing. It’s fine. We’re not going to stop you. But at this point, we’ve lost interest. We’ll move on to the next one.

Bennie 

Wow, wow, that’s awesome. And now you’re the dean. So with the nexus of higher ed space in there, I’d love to talk to you a little bit because entrepreneurship is that next leap that we often think about. We have our professional interests, our practice and the things that we do. And then you have that moment where you realize that you can make your mark. Talk to me a bit about,

Sean 

Yes. Yeah.

Bennie 

How it felt to take that first, I mean, you have to think back to starting the company, how it felt to take that first jump.

That’s such a great question. I remember a few months before making that jump talking to, and this is not name dropping, it’s just because there were only so many people in Los Angeles at the time, but talking to Saul Bass about this idea of like, and I said, when do you know that it’s the right time to start your own business? Because in my mind, I was like, I had that pool, I was working for April, which I loved, which every day was an right.

Sean 

Exciting adventure and you know we traveled around the world and do amazing work. But in the you know sort of like yeah I’m like 27 years old and kind of have that itch. I want to have my own vision, my own idea of what design can be. And so I asked Saul about that and he said there’s never a good time to start your own business. It’s like getting pregnant. There will never be a perfect time. You just have to do it. You’re either an entrepreneur or you’re not. And I’m like you know you’re right.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Sean 

I can’t wait for the perfect time because there will never be the perfect time when all the stars line up and you feel happy and comfortable and stable and then you can make this leap. It’s like, no, you gotta make that leap of faith. And he was right. It was amazing. I was blown away. I mean, when we started the business, I seriously thought, okay, we’ll be lucky. I remember thinking, if we can get one CD cover.

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

As a project, that’s about $2,500. And then maybe if a bank hires us to do something like a logo, okay, maybe we could clear like $5,000 a month, and that could support both of us. And immediately it just took off like wildfire. And it’s just, I don’t know, work on people and being nice to them, then people come back to you. And I was shocked when that happened.

And, but it was, when people ask me, they’re like, well, I don’t know, should I start my own business? I’m like, do you want to, or don’t you? That’s if, if you do it, like, you know, have faith in yourself and, you know, and I think if you really believe in what you’re doing and you enjoy what you’re doing, it comes through in the work.

Bennie 

Right. I think you’re right. And it comes in, we talked beginning about gravity, right? And that’s the space in there, kind of pulling you into those. Your notion of start now reminds me of planting trees. And I grew up in the city and I still live in the city, but I have enough yard that I could plant trees. And so as a city kid, I was like, this is kind of cool. And I started going through and spending time. And it was always this…

Sean 

Mm-hmm. Nice.

Bennie 

This exercise in patience or, oh, I wish I had done this before. And I remember somebody telling me, when’s the best time to plant a tree? It’s like 10 years ago. When’s the second best time? Right now. And having that moment, if you’re gonna jump in, you can’t rest on, I should have done it or I thought about it, but jump in.

Sean 

Right. That day. Right. And how many times in life have you done something and then thought back, why didn’t I do that earlier? Why did I wait so long? There’s so many times in my life I’ve been like, why did I wait so long? That was, you know, of course, you know, you have your own journey, your own path, and you have to go through your own processes to get to that place, but, yeah.

Bennie 

Exactly. But to know that the jump isn’t as scary as you think it is.

Sean 

It’s not, it was actually, I remember the day that I, you know, of course I was, you know, I think April and I cried when I said I was gonna leave and start my own business. And she was fantastic and supportive and like, what can I do? And, but I remember the first day driving to the office after we had, you know, gotten a space and just feeling so elated and like, wow, I’ve got the whole world ahead of me now. I’m like, I can do, I can make it whatever I want. It’s like, I can. I can work with whatever clients I want. I can design however I think design should be. That was, it was such an amazing feeling.

Bennie

So in keeping with this kind of theme of these pivots and points, describe your feeling on your next pivot when you leave the kind of space that you’ve built to kind of pursue this additional passion of teaching.

Sean 

Mm-hmm. Right. Oh, well, yeah, I would love to say that was just as like smooth sailing, but it was just awful. It was truly one of those gut wrenching like hard life points that, you know, those, um, those pivots that you hit, you know, and I think every once in a while, you know, we hit those, you know, rocks in the current where you have to make a change. And, you know, the, you know, this was about 2013 and at that point,

We’d been in business for a little over 20 years. And I really had felt like, really felt like, wow, I really achieved a lot of the things that I, more than I thought I ever would as a company. You know, I’ve worked with basically all the clients I ever wanted to work with. You know, I’d gotten a lot of recognition that I didn’t expect. A big part of it was actually getting the AIJ medal that I was like, I didn’t think that would happen until I was 70 years old.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Sean 

And so when it did, I was like, wow, okay, well I’ve done that now. So what am I gonna do the next 20 years? And I was in Berlin on a project with 15 students. We’d gone there for three months to work on a project there, which is great. Art Center has a Berlin studio, so every term a group of students go over and you actually do a real project with a client. So I was over there and I just remember standing on the corner of, you know,

Bennie 

Okay. Oh well.

Sean 

I’m stressed and all of a sudden feeling like, wow, I feel happy. This is weird. Like, I’m so used to feeling anxious. And, you know, and after 20 years, you’ve spent a lot of times, especially as your company grows, like worrying about payroll, worrying about, okay, I’ve got, what’s the revenue stream in six months? What’s, you know.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. And those are the things that we never really talk about up front, right? That do keep you up at night. It’s not the creative prowess. It’s not the business strategy in there. It’s that sense of responsibility, that payroll of people’s lives.

Sean 

Right, yeah. Right. Like you’ve got 15 people that are dependent their lives, livelihoods are dependent on you, which is great. And I thought it was fantastic. I love that opportunity to help young designers. But for the moment I was like, I think I feel happy because I’m not worried about myself. I’m not worried about how can I make payroll? How can I make this happen? Can we increase revenue? I was thinking about Alice’s

Bennie 

Mmm.

Sean 

Photos and would they come out okay or not? Or did Murphy get to interview that person that he needed to interview? So he was more concerned about their success than my own and it felt so good. And you know, something that Robert Redford had settled at one point was you got to send the elevator back down. And I remember thinking that on that corner and thinking, I think it’s time to make that jump. I need to make that change. It’s going to be hard because

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Sean 

The business was successful, there was no reason to make a change like that. And I don’t think my business partner was that keen on the concept of this, but for my own sanity, I was like, I gotta do this. It’s time for me to, it’s time for me to, I’d rather spend the next part of my career helping the next generation than making myself rich. And so that was really the goal. And that’s been the, that’s the guiding principle every day I get up and think about, you know, now as a Dean, I’m, unfortunately, I don’t get to think about individual students as much because, you know, they usually talk to their chairs or their faculty, but at least I can look at the whole and say, how can I improve interdisciplinary options between the fine art students and the illustration students? What can I do to make sure that, you know, the unit count is more affordable? And so it’s, you know, it changes a little bit, but.

But it was really that sending the elevator back down that really changed the way I thought about things.

Bennie 

It’s really interesting as you kind of think about this work. We mentioned before that while you’re not designing, you are really at a macro level designing at this point. And so those skills and the training and the things that inspired you are showing up in different ways across.

Sean 

Yes, yes. Yeah. It does work. I was working on student advising is obviously a big issue at any school. And you wanna make sure students are getting the best creative, not just creative advice, but career advice that they can. And part of that is just the nitty gritty of like, do you have enough units right now? Have you taken your required classes? And the school, you know, the way that it was done forever was you got this big, long, giant, you know,

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

Three whole punch print out of like all the classes someone had taken and what was left to take and you know you give that to like an artist and they’re like I can’t read this are you kidding me so I was like I can design this so I was like I’ll make an interactive diagram that actually shows here’s all the classes click on one and it’ll tell you what they need to take next and I was like and I did that and they’re like oh this makes perfect sense now and I was like yeah you can still design stuff

Bennie 

Oh yes. Okay. You can still find solutions that are there, right? So I’ll ask this question, because I’m gonna put a pin in this for a second, and we think about the actual work and what you’re teaching. How have you seen the practice of branding evolve the last 10 to 15 years?

Sean 

Yeah. That’s such a good question. I love that. I’m so glad you asked that. You know, when I was, you know, when Atlas Marioka was running and we were really focused on the second, the last, the second 10 years on sort of large branding projects. And I really started to understand it was obviously not about making a nice logo. It was about solving a business problem and digging in and really solving the business problem of like, you know, finding out, okay, maybe the logo is not your problem. Maybe the problem is you have terrible customer service. How can we design a better customer service experience? So that was one of my favorite things to do. I love that. And I found in the educational sphere, getting designers, young designers to think that way was sort of like you were the anti-Christ. Like you were some evil human being promoting capitalism in its worst possible way.

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

As opposed to allowing them to make just beautiful logos that lived in a void. And so, but over the last 10 years, I’ve really seen that shift. And, you know, we have one degree offering, which is just, just brand design and strategy, you know, it’s a masters of design program and it really is focused on hardcore marketing and hardcore economic issues and really solving those problems. Just understanding that great visuals are like wheels on a car. It’s expected. That’s the minimum. Now you gotta solve the real problem. And seeing the students work on projects there where they’re also integrating social justice and environmental issues, and really, really understanding the connection between the cultures we create are just as valued as this brand experience.

Bennie

Right.

Sean 

Is that’s the exciting part that it’s like, now it’s like this whole big world where they’re like, wow, you know, we’re actually talking about community. We’re not just talking about making GE better. We’re talking about an entire community and how it interacts with that community. So that’s the exciting part of branding right now. And I love it. It’s the only class I teach is, I teach a class on brand history. And it’s great to be able to like, go through, like, let’s go back to the Romans and what they were doing and how did they market those oil lamps? And, you know, and you see like, wow, it’s the same exact story, you know, like, and the fact that we can track, you know, Roman history based on the economics of the branding and where things were being produced, whether it was like outsourced to Germany or in Rome itself, they start to really get it like, oh, this is bigger than just a logo.

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

This is tied to human beings. Yeah.

Bennie 

And this is more dynamic of a social history of business and life and community, right?

Sean 

Exactly. It’s like the messages we make or what shape people’s thoughts. And understanding that, especially when you’re working with large scale branding issues, is that impact of, you know, just even like basic representation is like so critical and so easily dismissed if you’re just going to worry about the visuals of some.

Bennie 

Right. It’s so interesting. We were talking about kind of history. I’ve been a big fan for years of these ghost brand moments. So when you’re in cities or communities is in space and you know, we’re built upon, we’re built upon, we’re built upon, right? And you start to see these layers peel back and you see the ads from 50 years ago on the side of the buildings of legacy brands.

Sean 

Mm-hmm. Right.

Bennie 

Or brands that are still there and you see like how much of an impact it had in the community and how it was represented there that we sometimes lose because we cover it over with new items. But then they kind of peek through to have a space in it.

Sean 

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that’s the, that and understanding too, like when, when I talked to some of the students, I mean, I love the fact that you said your son loves history, that God bless you for that. That’s you’ve done some, you’ve done your, that you’re an amazing human being parent. That’s, that’s, I love that. That’s, um, I mean, that is incredible because, you know, when, when I’m talking about branding with the students and, and a big chunk of it is understanding how.

Bennie 

We’re going to take that sound clip and pipe it into his room. So.

Sean 

Integrally tied it is to economic issues and societal issues. It’s history. It’s not, I mean, McDonald’s worked because the highway system was being built, you know, and there’s like just, and the highway system was being built for the Defense Department because of the Cold War, you know, and it’s, you start to piece those things together and, and then, then I’ve seen students be like, oh, wait, well, what are we now?

Bennie 

Exactly.

Sean 

How do we respond to a post-COVID world and now one that is like a lot of much more screen-based? What does that mean in terms of the way we think as human beings? And I love that.

Bennie 

It’s interesting that now we talk about what does branding mean in a principally digital first space, right? So what are, you know, our ghost conversation of brands and histories, we’re unveiling these artifacts. So what becomes, you know, our artifacts in a truly born digital space?

Sean 

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, what happens to that? And how are you utilizing that? And that is one of the big challenges I actually do find is that as designers, especially graphic designers, we like things, right? Like, we like to touch things and hold things. And so I get so many undergrad students that come and say, I just wanna be a book designer. I’m like, yeah, that’s not gonna work.

It’s great. I do them. I design books. I love designing books. You’re not going to make a living off of it. Like, let’s, you know, you’re going to have to understand there is an actual digital world and how it functions. But once they get that, then I think they start to see it’s more about the experience than it is about the artifact. And the message, you know, and the message, you know, that’s the thing I really love that when they, when that light bulb goes off, like the message has to be delivered on. Like you can’t tell someone you’re something and not be that. You have to deliver on that promise, which boils down to the obviously ethics issues where you have to make that decision. Am I willing to support this message? Am I willing, you know, is this, do I believe in this or am I stretching? Do I push back? Like where do we sit as designers on?

Bennie 

In that conversation, right? And so it’s interesting, we’ve talked about kind of this nexus looking to the next generation of designers, brand specialists, and space interactive leaders. I’d love to kind of then just pivot about a 180 and then look to the contemporary leadership, whether it’s in brand leadership or your CMOs. What message or advice do you have?

Sean 

Yeah.

Bennie

For a contemporary CMO to unleash that kind of full power of design and branding, right? Because often there’s that connection. And I see sometimes where there’s CMOs who get it and are brilliant in having that through line, but others where we really struggle. We’re so connected, but yet we struggle with how to maximize that moment of brand and marketing.

Sean 

Bray. Right, right. The best chief marketing officers I’ve ever worked with were the ones that asked the right questions, that really were willing to dig in and they did not come to a project with the presumption that they knew all the answers already. That they really were like willing to sit down and if you’re working with a good designer, they should be asking the questions, you know, okay, well, who’s your audience?

And everybody always says, everybody. It’s like, I get that whole, everybody. Well, that’s a little broad. Maybe we can actually dial in a little bit on that one. And where does it ring in at? And then the chance that someone may say, that’s maybe not the right audience. Let’s look at alternatives. And I think the best people I’ve worked with were always like, that’s really interesting. Let’s think about that. And maybe they are working with it.

Bennie 

It’s just bring it in a little bit.

Sean 

Or just to define, let’s go through these attributes or the brand personality. And again, the first round is always, well, we’re about quality and we’re friendly. Well, who isn’t? Like, you know, like the Nazis, like what I don’t understand, you know? So it’s usually like, okay, let’s dig a little deeper and really find out what makes you different, what sets you apart. And in all…

Bennie

Right.

Sean 

I would say 90% of the time when I’ve done that, we’d ended up back at the founding of the company or the back of the beginning of that organization where you can see like the person that founded it had these values, this was their goal. And it’s usually pretty good. And you’re gonna be like, okay, let’s not really rethink this, pull it forward.

Bennie 

Well, we were talking about entrepreneurship the other day. And it’s typically that founding moment is the spark, right? It’s the quintessential idea of how I can make something better, how I can make something faster, more dynamic. It’s the, how can I make it face-to-face, which is at the heart of kind of good, solid business or organizational creation. And coming back to that gives you that sense of purpose and pragmatic purpose. Like, like…

Sean 

Right.

Bennie 

What do we actually do to make this?

Sean

Yeah, how do we actually address this now? And it’s typical that any organization, any organization, nonprofit, for-profit, whatever it is, grows organically, change happens over time, and you end up with a gazillion tree branches that all think different things. And that chance to go back to the root and say, okay, what did…

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

What was this about at the beginning? And sometimes it’s so simple. Like I remember with Nickelodeon, like one of the most critical components was obviously honesty with the audience, which were children, being honest and be irreverent. And of course that’s smart. That’s like that great. You can do a lot with that. But over time, you know, someone maybe had come in from another company and they’re like, oh, we should be more like Disney or someone else would be like, oh, we should be more like, you know, Cartoon Network.

Bennie 

Yes.

Sean 

So things get diluted and often it’s like, let’s just get back to the root of that. Is that still viable? Is that still something we should be talking about?

Bennie 

It’s such a great message. I remember exploring and having conversations with folks at Lego and watching one of the great BBC documentaries on Lego and having them have that moment where they got back to the core principle, to the brick. And then realizing, yes, it was all about the brick and the system and the endless creativity, but the mini figure had grown up as well. So then you end up with the core being the figure which represented the personality and the brick, which was the system, clearing out everything else.

Sean 

Mm-hmm.

Bennie 

And then starting back from those seats.

Sean 

Yeah, yeah, that’s the great part about branding, right? I mean, I love that. And then in terms of marketing, if you’re really like, it’s sort of all integrated. There’s a great case study, and I always get this wrong. It was either QuickBooks or Quicken, but one of them is always on the end cap at Target and Walmart. And so they’re the best seller. They’re on the end cap because Target and Walmart.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Right.

Sean 

Need something, need to sell to their customers, things the customers could trust that they’ll like, right? So at Quicken, if that is the right one, everyone in that company works in the call center for a couple of weeks a year. Everyone, from the CEO to like, you know, whatever, the nurse, you know, like you’re all working in there. And because of that, everybody hears the customers.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Sean 

Asking the questions that are, and typically it’s like, how do I turn it on, right? So instead of the engineers saying, how can we add more features? They realized, how do I make this simpler? How do I make this more understandable? And I love that that’s their core marketing drive. It’s not that they have a beautiful package design or they have like a flashy ad campaign. That’s like, they make a product that people can use because they’ve actually listened to the audience. They really do participate.

Bennie 

Perfect, right? Which is such an invaluable lesson, right? We talk about being customer centric, but how do you find a way to make sure that you’re reinforcing that? How do you bring that back into the work? Because you’re right, you can get caught up in this pursuit of features on top of features. And you have that moment of like, how do I turn it on? How do I use it? Because if I can’t engage it, then it can’t be a solution.

Sean 

Right. How do I turn it on? Right, right. And you know, it’s like, I mean, I had someone yesterday that was, we were trying to get her to understand how to sign into teams. And it was like this incredible struggle, just like, I mean, it easily took an hour and a half. And I was like, it’s gotta be simple. I just, you know, like, there are people out there that are not 14 years old and they’re digital natives. There are people that, you know, in that instance, you really have to work with. But just understanding

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

That you are in the business of communication with human beings. You’re not selling a product, you’re working with human beings. That’s the connection. It’s like there’s that amazing classic marketing myopia, which is about the railroad industry and the fact that they completely lost the transportation war because they thought they were the railroad industry when in fact they were the transportation industry.

Bennie 

Right. The transportation industry. Exactly. Yes.

Sean 

And if they’d only gotten past that and said, oh, our job is to move human beings around in comfort, then you’d say, hey, forget the railroad. Let’s like get some airplanes.

Bennie 

Right. Because then you ladder into kind of these pure higher purposes, right, that open up the space for you. Because then you can remove yourself from the technology. You can move yourself from the mode. You can move yourself from what’s been done, because those things are going to change. Right. It is my gift to you, because you get me such other great things to do. One of the things I definitely want to talk about is, is your role as

Sean 

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. That’s it. I’m going to steal that. I love that.

Bennie 

My words, not anybody else’s, but as an ambassador of this notion of continuous learning. I love the fact that you were pushing design brand and business in fundamentally open ways. I think about when I first encountered your course on LinkedIn, I thought that it was targeted for me because I’m a design business person in there, but seeing your course continually come up as the most popular of all the courses.

Sean 

Mm-hmm.

Bennie 

That for many people, this was their first intro into how design, brand, marketing, and business could impact their world. And it was in a way that was really dynamic and approachable and taking away the platform. But when you look at the scale, yes, not everybody’s gonna be able to go to CalArts or go to the Art Center, but how can these lessons impact the design of their organizations, their business?

Sean 

Right. Mm-hmm.

Bennie 

You know, we talk about marketing, not just in products and services, but also campaigns for behavior, campaigns for change, campaigns for, you know, moving the world forward that you gave an on ramp to that. So I want to say thank you for that and continue, continue it because I think the democratization of the learning is really important to enable us to grow it.

Sean 

Mm-hmm. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s obviously it’s something I really firmly believe in. And, um, you know, tiny plug, I actually have a course releasing tomorrow on domestica, which is the European version of LinkedIn learning, um, which is about actually using color for, you know, social benefit and, you know, using it color and more meaningful, powerful way psychologically, but the, I started doing the LinkedIn learning courses back when it was Linda.com and

Bennie 

Okay.

Sean 

When I was in high school, I went to high school, this tiny school in Seaside, Oregon, which is like on the coast, it was like a town of 5,000 people. And our library at school had one book on graphic design and it was a book on Nazi propaganda. That was it. No one knew anything about graphic design. Our teacher was a ceramics person, so she didn’t know anything about it. So all I had was this book on Nazi propaganda. And…

Bennie 

That’s all you had.

Sean 

And my parents, of course, had a couple of posters that I loved, but that was it. And I was like, okay, I gotta figure out how to do it. I mean, of course, everything I look at, I did in high school now, looks like Nazi propaganda, sort of, but twisted for the summer musical. Oh, well, I’m gonna make a good one for Anything Goes. That’s gonna work well.

Bennie

Thank you. That’s a horrible start, my friend. Horrible start.

Sean 

It was like, no, this is really, you know, I’m like, well, I guess this pose you use black and white like this. And and so when Linda Weiman first asked me, you want to come and do a LinkedIn or Linda.com course? I thought, yes, because there’s someone out there in that high school that has the one book on Nazi propaganda. And they would probably be great if they actually just like, can I just give them really good, solid information?

In a way that doesn’t talk down to them, that isn’t in any way assuming, oh, you must know this already, but just real useful information that can hopefully then move them onto the next place. And the courses are never built to be like, well, this is everything you ever need to know. It’s like, this is a great start, and I want you to dig deeper after that, and to just keep exploring it.

And so that’s why I’ve kept doing them. You know, I mean, I don’t know how many courses are up there at this point, but they’re hard work, you know. They’re like writing a book because you have to write the scripts, you know. And usually they’re about two hours long. And then you have to get all the images. So, you know, in the end you’ve got like a 30,000 word book with about 500 images. But you get to tell that story in a way that.

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

You’re like, well, someone’s going to get this. Someone’s like, you know, there’s someone doing scrap booking in Kansas that might need a little help with composition, you know? Or, you know, I just started on, we were going to add to the graphic design history course that I have because it stops at about 2000. So I said, well, we really should get it up to date. And then I realized, well, we have to redo the whole thing because.

Bennie 

Okay.

Sean 

I filmed that thing about 10 years ago. So if I just film the second part, it’s gonna look like the picture of Dorian Gray, where I’d just go for like 40 years, you know, like, whoa, he aged horribly in like one video. So he said, let’s redo the whole thing. How about that? And then it also gives us an opportunity to say, okay, well, we can also include different cultures, BIPOC, women designers, more than we had 10 years ago.

Bennie 

Right, right, right.

Sean 

And so, you know, I’m like, okay, we got to get this in here, but I got to put it in terms that everyone understands that is accessible, you know, and then hopefully if someone’s like, I love Emery Douglas. Good, go find more information about Emery Douglas, you know, like there’s, I’m just the small, sad, you know, I don’t want to say it’s not well, I’m like basic. Okay, probably in a bad way basic.

Bennie 

Great.

Sean 

Yeah.

Bennie 

Well, but you know, for our conversation and it really kind of ties in, it’s both the spark and the gravity, right? There’s a spark that creates the idea and then the gravity that pulls us through in there. So we started talking about the art center as a space that kind of pulled you in. Then we talked a bit about your career as a designer in that pool, entrepreneurship and then education. And now with these lofty products, it’s all about that spark being reinforced by that pool.

Sean 

Yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Bennie 

Which I think is really powerful and so greatly appreciated as we think about marketing and business and design in these moments where we’ve got all of the things that we’ve been all studying or been a part of a service conflating together at this time in really, really powerful ways. So I say thank you for challenging us.

Sean 

Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean, it’s complicated, right? Marketing is not easy. This is not like, oh, I just kind of like figured out I can make a logo and put it on a brochure. This is knowing human beings. This is understanding society and where it’s moving and understanding history and responses. But at the same time, there’s a great little piece of dialogue in the movie Sabrina with Humphrey Bogart and Audrey Hepburn. And he talks about running his factory, which makes some…

Bennie 

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sean 

Horrible plastic probably, you know, in the movie, they have some bouncy plastic they make. And he says, look, the way I think about it is I do a good job with this figuring out how to make this plastic, and that keeps people at the factory employed. And those people get to send their kids to college, and they get to buy washing machines and dryers. And the people that make the washing machines and dryers, they get to like have children and have them benefit.

Bennie 

Right.

Sean 

And so it’s like the smallest things we do actually have such big impact. And it’s so easy to think, oh, I’m not working for Greenpeace. I should be doing more. I’m like, no, but you are. I mean, you’re keeping someone’s job. You’re helping someone thrive. You’re giving opportunities down the line. It’s that ripple effect that’s so critical. I mean, that’s what I really love about, you know, design and marketing, that it’s those tiny ripples. It’s like many small things that add up.

Bennie 

I can’t think of a better way to end our conversation than that point, my friend. You know, many small things that add up and have the power of marketing, brand, and design in our world. Sean, thank you for spending this time with me. I can’t believe we’re at the end of our conversation. We’re gonna have to do it again. I always could talk to you forever. Thank you for everything and continuing to push our professions to what’s for tomorrow.

Sean 

Yeah. And now there’s so much fun. Well, hey, it’s a joy and a privilege, honestly. And so great talking to you. I miss seeing you. It’s, you know, we got to…

Bennie 

Likewise, we’re going to make that up. I’m going to get on a plane and come out and hang out with you.

Sean 

Yeah, you come out and visit and yeah, that would be fantastic.

Bennie 

Well, thank you for joining us. Sean, thank you all for joining us for this episode of Marketing And. Once again, I’m your host, Benny Johnson. We invite you to explore the professional community of the American Marketing Association for your learning and engagement. We ask you to check out the Art Center and the work that Sean and his team are doing. And we encourage you to challenge and build a new world. Thank you all for joining us.