Transcript

Bennie F Johnson

Hello, and thank you for joining us for this episode of AMA’s Marketing And. I’m your host, AMA CEO, Bennie F. Johnson. In our episodes, we explore life through a marketing lens, delving into conversations of individuals that flourish at the intersection of marketing and the unexpected. We introduce you to visionaries whose stories you might not yet have heard of, but are exactly the ones you need to know. Through our thought-provoking conversations, we’ll unravel the challenges, triumphs, and pivotal moments that have been shaped by marketing. Today our guest is Clemence Sop.Clemence has been with InterSystems since 2018, working as the digital marketing manager and their global social media marketing manager. But now, most importantly and powerfully, as their head of marketing innovation. Prior to joining InterSystems, she worked with Conrad Technologies on marketing strategy and its development.

She’s a proven strategic marketing leader, and she not only brings an extensive background in customer marketing, media strategy, and business development, but she also strives at this intersection of innovation through digital platforms and AI. Clemence, welcome to our podcast.

Clemence Sop

Thank you for having me.

Bennie 

It’s really a pleasure that you’re able to make time for us today and talk about all things innovation, digital and AI. I want to start with a point that I was struck in looking at your background, a prompt that you have on your LinkedIn page, which is fearless innovation. Talk a bit about that as a starting point for you.

Clemence 

I’m not afraid to find new solutions to solve existing problems because that’s how you innovate, is try to find fastest ways and new ways, easier ways to solve existing problems. And when you are innovating, you activate your creative mind and you find new solutions, right? And then that’s just my DNA. I’m a creative thinker. I like to find like those

Bennie 

Right. Right. Right.

Clemence 

I like challenges. When something is easy, get bored and challenges push, they push me to learn more, to explore and find new ways to solve problems. And that’s how, that’s how I, that’s the definition. That’s why I put the fearless innovation there. Yeah.

Bennie 

Well, was one of the things that drew my attention and immediately fell in love with the statement. I knew I had a kinship there of someone who loved innovation and that intent to be fearless with it. As you lead now, being the head of marketing innovation, what does that mean for you and your role today? As we round out 2024, what does it mean to be head of marketing innovation?

Clemence 

You know, way I see it is I’m very grateful about the digital era, right? Digital platforms have opened up a lot of opportunities to us, businesses, individuals. So you are able to connect with people all over the world. And post pandemic, is a new people are saturated now because a lot of people are being bombarded by information. In that,

Bennie 

Mmm.

Clemence 

How do you meet your buyers where they most need you? How do you meet them at the right place at the right time? How do you help them make decisions that help solve their problems? You must innovate. You must find a way to filter and get away from the mental spam filter that a lot of people online now have developed and stand out.

Bennie 

Right.

Clemence 

And to me, marketing, you don’t need to be the biggest player to achieve your goals. You just need to be strategic about how and what you want to do. And then you’ll be able to achieve your goals. So innovation today means whatever challenge we have, meaning we have to sell a new product. regardless, if there is already an existing competition, need new recruit. We need to recruit the best candidates. Right. We need to build a community in order to enter a new market, we need to go to a new country and introduce our solution. Then how do you do that? You have to find new ways to develop strategies and putting your target audience at the center of it all. And when you do that, you create new ways to navigate through all of this saturated digital world and you achieve your goals. So that’s how I view innovation today.

Bennie 

It’s really, really powerful. When you’re thinking about innovation, I know for you it’s not a process you’re taking on by yourself. What do you look for in team members now?

Clemence

I look for passion a lot, right? I I believe that the brain is a muscle. I truly believe that, you know, I believe that you can learn just about anything, you know, the more you train yourself, yeah, the better you get at anything. So I’m not looking for people who know everything. I rather look for people who understand that they still have to learn and are curious enough to recognize that go and learn.

Bennie 

Hmm. Right.

Clemence 

Try, fail, learn and be better. That’s what I look for in people.

Bennie

Right.

Clemence 

Yeah.

Bennie 

To foster this within your team, how do you champion this spirit of innovation across your organization with other teams and other departments? How do you get them on board with the ideas and approaches from your marketing innovation?

Clemence 

You know, I learned the hard way. When you’re innovating and you’re bringing in, because the good thing, and I’m very grateful that, you know, the Intersystem has given me the platform to be able also to try and fail and learn, right? Especially when you have to solve or deal with a new challenge and finding new ways to resolve it. I the pandemic all taught us that we have to do marketing differently, right?

Bennie 

Yeah.

Clemence 

And so when I’m just going to give you a concrete example. So when I joined the company a couple of years back, I was already a big advocate for us to adopt this digital landscape, right? Because obviously with my engineering background and starting algorithms, I do understand.

Bennie 

Right. You’ve been about that because you came into marketing as an engineer.

Clemence 

Yeah, I did. And it’s very funny because when I was at school, to be honest, I remember we used to make fun of everybody studying communications and marketing because we thought it was so easy and we were like the only girls in the engineering class. But yeah.

Bennie 

Me say it ain’t so. You didn’t make fun of other marketing kids. So talk a bit about marketing. So now we’ve got marketing revenge. So you are all marketing now. You are engineering marketing together.

Clemence 

But that was the best decision I made.

Yeah, I am marketing now. No, what made me change anyways, I’m an engineer by training. And when I was doing my master’s, I was specializing in systems engineering. I came across this article, right? And he talked about the data, the big data, and talked about the data, data science beyond social platforms. That was when Facebook was starting, right?

Bennie 

Right. Mm-hmm.

Clemence 

Was talking of the business module behind. And the article predicted that the world is going to depend on these platforms because it’s a new art of communication, it’s a new social network. And when I read a little bit about it and I thought maybe a competitive advantage for me, right, will be to understand how those things work from the back end, right, from, well, on the front end.

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Clemence

So then if I can teach people and if I can understand the business world, the formula of the business module is not always easy. What I mean by this is the algorithms, right? If I can understand what drives the algorithms, then it’s a good competitive advantage because suddenly because of the business modules and because companies will rely on it if they know what best actions to take, they are ahead of the curve. And that’s how I started. Started studying Google algorithms.

Bennie 

Okay.

Clemence 

I don’t know any platform that I haven’t studied the algorithm and it’s pretty comprehensive, right? To study something from the front end. So you have to derive your own formulas. You have to collaborate a lot with students to help you study this patterns. Then you derive your formulas. And that has always helped me because what I do also here is I really teach the company as a whole and things that we need to do even with the link, with LinkedIn, with Facebook, with Instagram, with Google. If we know what to do, we save money and save time. Yeah.

Bennie 

Right. I love the language that comes out in your approach. You’ve multiple times in our conversation, you’ve already talked about teaching and learning and learning again and that being a core part of how you’re able to grow your team, but also put innovation throughout the organization. Recently, we’ve talked a lot, there are lot of conversations about AI and I think we’d be remiss if we didn’t talk about it with you because you’ve spent a lot of time rolling up your sleeves and understanding algorithmic learning and the algorithms that are going into platforms. But you’ve also done some projects where you’ve been able to really roll up your sleeves and dig into current AI tools. Talk a bit about what you’ve learned these last few months digging in with this project.

Clemence 

I mean, AI is a hype now, right? But AI is not new. It has just been made available to the consumer. My journey with really experimenting with AI started a couple of years back, right? When I introduced InterSystems right at the core of the pandemic, what my definition of social selling is. Mind you, we are in a B2B company, right? And we suddenly had to adapt the social

Bennie 

Right. Hmm.

Clemence

Rely on digital platforms to identify our prospects and engage with them and then sell, build relationships and then sell. That was the whole change management program because in that sense what I realized on social is that people talk to people, peers speak to peers, we are in marketing so we understand we speak the same language. When you’re trying to break into an account, we divide and conquer.

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Clemence 

Marketing people speak to marketing people, executives speak to executives, and suddenly we are multiplying our touch points and we’re building our footprints within the company and we walk in clusters. So that’s my definition of social selling. But how do you do that efficiently? You have to get a lot of insight and insight doesn’t necessarily mean that, you you just Google here and there and you have to read through the finance reports, you have to understand.

Bennie 

Mm-hmm.

Clemence 

What people like because when you’re engaging with insights, right, you get feedback. If you engage without feedback, you spam people. So my team and I began experimenting with AI tools to scrape through the net and find information so we could report back to all of the members of the clusters.

Bennie

Right.

Clemence 

You know, to drive it could even help drive the marketing and designing their messaging, how sales is designing their outreach and how also our executives are designing their messages and their approach towards all the executives that we’re targeting. understanding what people talk about company pinpoints, right? Understanding where there’s an opportunity for investment or if the close investment only just those really triggers and nuggets. And obviously a lot of AI tools are evolving and coming up every day, right? And then the mistake we did, because we also learn, we learned is just trying to test all of it because one has a feature that the other one doesn’t have, right? So we, my goal was to understand how we can use AI to be very much efficient and save time. The biggest advantage to us is really scraping through and getting these insights and reporting it back to the team and using that in our outreach.

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Clemence 

So as to increase our lead quality and what I call, call to engagement. So communications and networks, that’s one thing. Automation, using AI for marketing automation and personalization, right? What I tell my team is that with all of these AI tools, we are faster. This doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to rely on them. We need to activate our left AI brain, meaning spend more time to be creative.

Bennie 

Right, right. Right. Right.

Clemence

Spend more time to personalize your approach so we can get past the brick wall that everybody has, right? Everybody has this brick wall or the mental spam filter. Yeah, so that’s my experience. I think we should embrace it, but not like go into it, just, you know, and we need to understand where we want AI to step in and help us.

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Clemence 

I, you know, what you also see, I just can spot AI written content online, right? In the ever evolving landscape. I mean, you have it. That’s something not to do, right? And that’s how we learn.

Bennie 

Right. It’s interesting because you can spot it. For me, it’s a parallel for looking at a stock image, right? If you’re in marketing, you can spot the stock images. Whether you know what company it’s coming from or not, you know where those stock images are being used. And they’re useful, but it’s not the same as an authentic… marketing engaged creative image, right? And you’re seeing that. I’m curious when you talked about the efficiency of using the AAS tools, which adds to less friction and more speed. In the change management sense, how have your other business partners responded to you being able to provide this greater efficiency and speed? Have they been overwhelmed with like now you’re able to get more information to them, right?

Clemence 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s overwhelming. you know, I think, you know, change management always has this loop or I just said you need to my experience with it is you get the early adapters and prove your point as you go. It’s not, you know, when I embark on this journey at the beginning, my my boss endorsed the program, you know, and he said, just do it. And he was endorsed globally.

And I suddenly had to talk to people from different cultures, different backgrounds. And I come back to him and was like, it’s not working. They are not buying it. And I see the value of it, right? And then can you, like, I was looking for a top -down approach, write an email, tell everyone to adopt it. He said something that I’m forever grateful to him for. He said, I want you to learn one of the biggest lessons. And he said, I want you to learn the art of persuasion, right?

Bennie 

Right. Wow.

Clemence 

You need to persuade people to do what you believe works, but they need to do it willingly. And so I went back and did all of these trainings where I needed to understand how, which is what I also used that in AI later. So I had to understand, if I’m going to France, I need to adjust my tone of voice. I need to know if somebody’s passive. I need to know if somebody is active. My team built an AI tool just based on that principle so we can adapt our tone of voice.

Bennie 

Right.

Clemence 

As we were drafting our messages to reach out to people because what I learned is that when I’m talking to people in this country, have to adopt my tone of voice, right? And I have to adopt, I have to adapt because it’s delivery and it’s how you deliver and how they receive it. And you have to make sure they receive your message. So I went back and, you know, I work with the early adapters and then always make sure to share the wins, right? And it’s like making it

Bennie 

Right.

Clemence 

Easy for people to adopt it and just keep working with the early adapters and then that’s how it evolved. Then we had a moment where we went to the peak and down the change management curve where people were saturated and overwhelmed by everything and we were not seeing any progress. We had to start again encouraging people, educating. I do a lot of education. So I know and I’m persistent.

Bennie 

Right.

Clemence

I’m pretty sure some people are sending this company -wide emails. So there is, I do trainings every, a month, right, about this program and it’s open to people. send for, you know, my team and I, send for a message, we work checklist. This is how you do it. have Belvin Academy so that people can go and watch it. Really made it easy for them to do. Now, is this a process? You know, a change management program is very common.

Bennie 

Great. Right.

Clemence

like Swan, but yeah, that was how we did it.

Bennie

I mean, one of the things that I never want to be lied about, but we think about it, innovation is a true process and change. And we all will say we want innovation until innovation happens to us. Right? It’s kind of in this space and it’s like, yes, we can do these things better, more dynamic and faster. And it’s great until you kind of imagine visually all of the things coming down the supply line. Getting faster and faster and faster.

Clemence 

Yeah. Yeah.

Bennie

And then innovation becomes a bit of a challenge because it’s not the way we used to do things.

Clemence 

Yeah, it’s not the way. then the good, just to add on that, and you know, once your challenge and because it’s a new thing, you always want to go back to the way you used to do things, right? And that’s the complicated thing with that. It’s very frustrating because people start something and then they stop and then they go back to what we were actually moving away from.

And it was quite interesting to look at it from a different perspective because again, another example, went back to my boss again with this problem. said, can you help me fix it? And he said, how long have you been in Boston? I’m like, I’ve been here a year. It’s like, how often do you go home? Do you have any doubt? I’m like, I still live in my, in the European time zone. My mind is still very much in Monte Carlo, right?

So I need time and when it’s difficult here, I always fall back to Monte Carlo. So I still connect with my family, my friends. It takes time to adapt and it takes time to get used to new processes. Yeah.

Bennie 

So I’ll ask this question for you. How is your foray into artificial intelligence improve you as a manager through your own human intelligence?

Clemence

It has made me smarter and faster. You know, you can comprehend a lot of information easily. That to me is the greatest value proposition of the AI stuff, right? Is that I get, I’m exposed to a lot of knowledge. would have taken me longer to even read and comprehend. I can summarize and I can understand it. You know, I’m presented with phases.

Bennie 

Mm.

Clemence

and then it’s up to me to make the next best decision to help me in my life or in my job, right? I think that is the biggest value that I see, not necessarily relying on it completely, but helping me in those decision making.

Bennie 

Mm. Which is really, if you can hear the growth and just think about it as a manager in a space. So, you know, in your career before, and we’ve had these conversations on our podcast, looking at the evolving role of the CMO title. In the past, you’ve been a fractional leader for spaces. Talk to me a bit about that. What are some of the lessons that you take away or advice you have for people who may be serving in those roles? Where they get to provide leadership on a part time basis for someone.

Clemence 

That’s challenging. It’s like you have, it’s the same thing. It’s like you, my experience is with the fractional rules that I have is, it’s more like a consultant and it’s you coming in, right? You’re having, you’re seeing a problem and you’re suggesting a solution, but it’s not up to you to implement it. You have no, you have no, I would say no direct power on that. The team has to decide for themselves if they would implement it. That is difficult. If they report to you, it’s a different scenario, all of them report to you. But when you’re consulting, you have to, again, persuade. Because I am very results driven. I’m very results driven. So sometimes when you provide a solution, you provide a strategy, I know for sure.

If it’s been implemented from A to Z with a bit of tweaks, we’ll get the results. But then you’re living against somebody else’s hand or in a team’s hand and you don’t have direct authority or direct power to make them do it, which is not, I don’t say you have to me again. The point I’m trying to make is just, have to persuade. Work with a lot of persuasion. And I always come with my facts. I’m always prepared. I never say something that is not backed up by facts. Right. And so when I use that, I.

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Clemence 

Convince them and persuade them to do it and they see the results and that’s how I evolve. my advice to answer your question, my advice to people in that role, if they have a similar experience as I had or as I am having is to do your homework, to come with your facts and to work in a persuasive way because when you can persuade people to do, to align your thoughts with theirs, you achieve greater success.

Because it’s not my way or the highway, right? It’s a collective thing. Yeah.

Bennie 

So I’ll ask you this bit of a question because I have a firm believer that two things can be true at the same time. We know that you were trained as an engineer. When did you realize you were a marketer?

Clemence 

I think I was always a marketer. I think I was always a marketer. It just took me a while to realize it.

Bennie 

I was going to breathe, but I didn’t want to put words in your mouth. Well, we’re delighted as a community that you are. But I think there’s some beauty in being a marketer who understands engineering and an engineer who understands marketing and having no space. Think about how robust and expansive the role of marketing executive has become.

Clemence

Yeah. Yeah. I think that when you can understand data, you can only become a better marketer. Because look, this is awesome in marketing and it might be generalizing. Let me put myself on that. Often we think about…

Clemence 

We think about, we look at things from our lenses, right? So I want to sell my product. I want to market my product. I will say my product is the very best product. Is it the very best product? Yeah. But when you look at things from the customer side, it’s different, right? It’s like you have to adjust your tone of voice. You have to make sure you’re answering the why, right? And with data points, actually, you can get feedback. You can know, is it resonating? Am I making progress?

Do I need to shift things right and left? And so I think a good market, a good data scientist is a great market here when he masters that. think the combination of both, well, this is where the world is taking us to, right? With all this technology right now. Yeah, if you understand data, you’re very good in marketing.

Bennie (26:04.287)

Hmm. Right. So true. Now you’ve been tasked, we talked about this before, really being global in your nature, global in the work that you’re doing in space. What are some of the acceleration points or trends you’re seeing globally in terms of the market when you kind of think about the work you do in the US but then the work you do in Germany or France or other spaces? Are you seeing any different trends or any things that we should be aware of?

Clemence 

I think when we’re talking of the digital landscape, right? And talking in a B2B field, I think for me, there is an overall, I think I’ve already mentioned it in this call. I call it the mental spam filter. It’s very difficult to get through the people online right now. When you come from a marketing standpoint, there is…

People are bombarded with information, social platforms are saturated, right? Taking LinkedIn, you accept the connection request. It feels like you accept, you give somebody an invitation to your living room because they keep bombarding you with messages that you didn’t even want, right? That is an overall trend right now. And what happens? That people are becoming very cautious and the call to engagement reduces. The quality of leads also we get.

Bennie

Right.

Clemence

It’s challenging to get the good leads, right? It’s challenging to have meaningful conversations or to get through to people. So what I see and what I’m telling the people when I travel is like, look at these platforms as a way to network with people, build relationships, and then you can sell, and then you can market, and then you can bring them to your community. And you can track and see if your message is resonating with them. Does that make sense?

Bennie 

Right. It makes a lot of sense and these are things that are good foundational spaces for marketing that are intentionally amplified in our global space now. Yeah, so I want to talk a bit about listening as strategy. What advice do you have about being able to use the tools that we have to listen to be able to engage with your marketplace?

Clemence 

Yeah. Yeah. We have to listen a lot, right? And listen, you have to listen with insights too. Like knowing there’s difference. Like if you’re looking at data points and you look at, I topographies, keywords, if you know that these people are looking for the specific keyword, is that enough insight to reach out to them? Probably not, right? You need to do your homework, right? Yeah, exactly. Without being intrusive.

Bennie 

Not in an effective way without being intrusive, right?

Clemence 

You know, if you know, understanding is all about understanding people’s pain points, because then when you’re engaging, you’re engaging with insight. And the best thing you can do is even meet them in their research journey, because 88 percent, think I read this article the other day, a good 80 percent of the buyers journey is online. They are active researchers, active listeners, but they don’t want to be bothered. It would even be better if you meet them there in their search.

Right. And you can only do that if you’ve done your homework. So listening, can help us very well to listen, know, to understand, to summarize information, understand what project people are working on, what their pinpoints are, what kind of solutions they are looking for, and personalize our outreach. You know, I always tell people I work with like,

you increase your call to engagement by so many points when you try to add a personal note to it. Simple example, when I’m doing my research, you are on my radar and I would like to talk to you, right? And I realized we probably went to the same school or your daughter just graduated and you just posted about it. That’s an entry point, right? If I start with that, then we can…

Bennie 

Hmm. Okay. Right. Right.

Clemence

People is the people to people platform. And if we can add that personalized touch, we can build relationships and then we can achieve our goals.

Bennie 

I think that’s a really powerful point, right? When we strip away everything in there, our conversation as marketers is always about people -to -people relationships.

Clemence 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bennie 

Why do I answer, note, post, respond to an ad? It’s because it relates to me. So what have you been most excited about? As you spend a lot of time with AI platforms and seeing what’s new and next, what have been some of the things you’ve been most excited about in the last few months of new tools or potential techniques that are emerging?

Clemence 

Exactly. Yeah. These web scraper tools, don’t know, of them, are a few that are GDP are compliant. So you’re not, you could be in a safe place, but look at this. There’s so many tools have what we call AI agents. So you can build a custom API and then it browses for you. Imagine you can ask, okay, I’m going to have a meeting with this person or these companies and our rate are, you know, browse for me and give me a summary of what I should take into account. And you have a summary, right? And that is not what you get when you Google is really a summary because this browser just agents are scraping through multiple sources and summarizing it for you. So then you have it. So I’m very excited with those new scraping tools. Yeah. It could be on the gray line, but right now my experiment with it is

Bennie 

Right. Right.

Clemence 

It’s been productive, right? Because he helps me save a lot of time. Automation. That’s a big advantage. Personalizing automation, right? And this thing to adapt your tone of voice to the person’s personality. The futures that I’ve seen, well, they say they’re 80 % or 70 % accurate, but I think…

Bennie 

Yeah. Mm.

Clemence

It helps you to know that this person is assertive and doesn’t like to, you know, doesn’t like straight to the point and is stressed when you waste their time. You can just go straight to the point. No need to have a lot of jargon in your outreach or your lead capturing methods, right? For me, those are what I think of like top of mind and also helping us understand the algorithms better.

Bennie 

Right. Great.

Clemence

Before starting algorithms, you will do that manually. It’s a lot of work, a lot of hours, right? And now I can study, I can study them. And in Google, they change their algorithm every so often. So you think you get it, and then they change it again. So now with AI, it’s very easy. I found it easier to know many more things. Yeah.

Bennie 

Right. Right, with the constant change. You know, as we approach this, one of things that I love is that you’re always positive in your intention on innovation, kind of working through. What advice do you have to share with our marketers who are listening and our business leaders who are listening and our students who are listening about keeping that positive frame when you look at innovation? I get a lot of notes that are about

Clemence 

Yeah.

Bennie

The fear of what’s next, the fear of AI, the fear of algorithms. What advice do you have about keeping this positive future direction?

Clemence 

We all have to keep an open mind. Well, I for one, I’m not afraid of failure. It hurts, right? But I look forward to the opportunity to learn from it. Because what I tell people on my team, right, the guys who work with me, I’m more frustrated when we are afraid to try something because we are afraid to fail than when we try. I never say no to a new idea.

Bennie 

Right.

Clemence

That’s my motto. You bring a new idea, try it, do it. then let’s help you with it and let’s see what we can learn from it. as we’re doing it, and like did you you research, what can you still do extra? And that’s, I think you can only grow. think you also have to be embracing innovation also means that you have to be strategic about it, right? And you have to be careful. You don’t have to be all over the.

You have to really be goal oriented, right? And not be afraid to fail. And that’s how you grow.

Bennie 

Right. Yeah, I think it’s something, you know, in the nuance that you said, there’s a difference between being careful and being risk averse. And knowing that if nothing is ventured, nothing is gained. that being able to have that freedom in innovation, I think is really important. And it shines through in your conversations about, okay, we’re going to try.

Clemence 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Bennie 

So what do you think, what do you wish most marketers would try? If you could kind of give a script for in the next six to 12 months, what would you encourage marketers to try?

Clemence 

When we say marketers, know marketing is obviously very broad. I would just focus on what I know a little bit. So when it comes to personalize our race, lead generation, I wish that we actually listen to more to our target audience, right? And try to figure out the why a bit more.

Bennie 

Yeah.

Clemence 

And connect with people. There is this thing that I, and this is also one thing that we’ve used in my campaign. we say we want to, what part of the market, what is the market share that we want to have? We don’t want to be all over the place. like, for me, there’s what I usually use here internally and we call it situational awareness. We need to be known by the people who would care about what we are offering to them. And when we are strategic like that, it doesn’t matter if they already have an affinity with our competition, because we are going in to build relationships with them and then gain their trust.

Bennie 

Okay.

Clemence 

So it makes sense. Yeah.

Bennie

It does, it does. It’s interesting when we talk about all the technology we have, but at the heart of your strategy, it’s a humanist strategy. It’s about listening, it’s teaching, it’s learning. It’s all these things that put the human first, right? But allow you to use the technology to go into it. When you think about those who are coming into the profession,

Clemence

Yeah.

Bennie 

You entered from a path of engineering and we have a lot of students who come in who are looking and trying to find a space in marketing. What advice would you have for people to find their own way?

Clemence

I would say marketing is highly competitive, right? There a lot of people, there a lot of marketing, like if you’re a student, so the students coming into this field, we are, there are a lot of us, right? And I am always about what is your unique, what do you bring to the table that is unique? Because that’s how you would evolve and that’s how your career would also be designed, right? It’s finding that niche because marketing is broad, find that niche and excel in that niche. Make sure you are the best at it, right? Or even you’re not the best at it, that you really know what you’re doing. And yeah, you understand the ins and out of it. You do your research, you’re ahead of the curve. That’s the only way you gain competitive advantage. I would take it social media. There are a lot of social media, social media, I don’t know, marketeers out there. How do you stand out if you know the algorithm, right?

Bennie 

Right. Right? Right. Wow. And time and space. Well, I think on that note, we’ll conclude our conversation. It’s been delight to think about your world as this intersection of marketing and engineering, engineering and marketing, humans and algorithms.

Clemence 

if you know what to do because he helped people save money and time.

Bennie 

Listening and communicating. Clemence, it’s been a pleasure to kind of explore these conversations with you and we look forward to seeing more of the work that you’re able to do at this intersection of AI and marketing and building a new future. Thank you for joining me for this conversation and thank you all for listening to this episode of AMAs Marketing And. I’m your host, Bennie Johnson. We encourage you to learn more about the power of AI and marketing. through the AMA and through listening to our series. Thank you.